Interview with author and Oregonian Journalist Phil Stanford, 2012.

Interview conducted at The Bread and Ink Café on SE Hawthorne Street, October 3rd, 2012, at 12:00 pm...

Photo from December, 2011

Published online November 22nd, 2012

Interviewing journalist and Portland writer Phil Stanford was a real treat, as I am someone who is continually fascinated by driven, intelligent individuals who strive for excellence in their chosen professions and particularly writers, who produce quality writing on an interesting variety of unusual topics, as Stanford routinely does.

Among his books, are the well known 2004 non-fiction book entitled "Portland Confidential; Sex, Crime and Corruption in the Rose City" detailing the underbelly of Portland's criminal elite during the 1940's, 50's and 60's. He is also the author of "The Peyton-Allan Files" published in 2010, which tells the true crime story of a double murder in SW Portland during the 1960's.

I enjoyed Stanford's spontaneous and forthright responses to some difficult and challenging questions and his candid appraisals of such things as law enforcement during the 1970's, in Portland Oregon, the Michael Franke murder, Frank Gable's unjust imprisonment, along with his own unique experiences as a journalist in a town, noted for its compassionate liberalism but with an undercurrent of hidden racial oppression and discrimination among the power elite, in City Hall.

You are welcome to read this most current interview, with writer Phil Stanford and I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed conducting the interview. Stanford has just recently published a graphic novel, "City of Roses" which is being serialized monthly, and is available at (Dark Horse Comics) located at, 10956 South-east Main Street Milwaukie, OR 97222 (503) 654-4184.

Photo above of Dark Horse Comics retail outlet

Another popular location to buy Phil Stanford's serialized graphic novel, is at (Excalibur Comics) located at 2444 SE Hawthorne Blvd Portland OR 97214, 503-231-7351, and other book and magazine stores in the Portland metropolitan area. Both stores are wonderful examples of small business in Portland, Oregon. Support small and local business in Portland!

Photo above of Excalibur Comics retail outlet

Interview conducted at The Bread and Ink Café on SE Hawthorne Street, October 3rd, 2012, at 12:00 pm...

TK: How has being a journalist and a writer impacted your life? In what ways are you grateful for your profession and what its brought to you?

PS: Oh my goodness! Well, let me think about it a minute. Well...I've been doing this for such a long time. I started writing for the city paper, the town paper when I was in high school, doing sports. So, I've been doing it off and on for way longer than I should admit. But it's...(pause) I mean it's obviously been a major part of my life. Its certainly in the beginning how I related to people, how I meet people and there still is that. It gives me...certainly when I was writing a column, it gave me a good excuse to get out and meet a lot of people here in Portland. And it's given me a chance over the years, to get engaged, in certain issues, you know, the Franke case...

TK: Right.

PS: And then more recently, I don't know if this is journalism or what but writing "Portland Confidential" and then "The Peyton Allen Files" and even this; "City of Roses. Its given me a chance to educate myself on certain things. And in fact, even though I'd been writing a column for the Oregonian and the Tribune, when I started doing the research, I don't think I ever understood Portland at ALL until I started doing the research for "Portland Confidential." And then I saw this--I really began to understand what made the city work...yeah!

TK: What is your single greatest regret regarding Michael Franke's murder and the fact that Frank Gable, who many believe is completely innocent of the crime, still to this day, remains behind bars?

PS: Well, surely, my greatest regret has to be that Frank Gable is still in prison! I mean that's--that's--he simply didn't do it! There is absolutely no--there was no evidence that he did it. They had several jail birds, who had stuff hanging over their heads, say things that implicated him. There was no physical evidence! There was absolutely no evidence that he was even near the scene of the crime! He didn't do it. He didn't do it. He got railroaded. They needed to have someone to cut short the investigation...and uh...

TK: Because the real dilemma of course, was the prison corruption. And that's what they didn't want to come out, I'm presuming?

PS: Yeah! That's my assumption too. Its pretty clear that Michael Franke was in the process of investigating the corruption. It's pretty clear that there was a great deal of corruption and that no one wanted to look at it. As I sensed back at the time--at the time I was flying by the seat of my pants! I just knew that something wasn't right. The story coming out of Salem wasn't right. And I couldn't get the records because those are held closely by any police agency while the investigation was going on. But ten years later, or so, when I got the records, and went through them, I could see that I was right! They were lying! They were lying! They were covering things up. And so the question is why does he?--and you suggested it. It had to do with corruption in the prison system and I think it was more than just the prison system. I think it was probably--well, no need to speculate but I think it went beyond that. And my intuition at the time, back in the early 90's when I first started writing about it, was that it was like a sweater and they were afraid that if someone started pulling one string, the whole thing would unravel. And one of the things that would have unraveled, of course, under a serious investigation was Goldschmidt's secret relationship. And I say "relationship" in a neutral sense.

TK: Right.

PS: I mean there were two people and they had a--with that young girl--in his--in his past. And he fought to keep the FBI out of it. The FBI wanted to get into it. The FBI wanted to open an investigation. They were stopped by the US Attorney's office. I think..I just assumed that Goldschmidt put pressure on Charlie Turner and they killed it. Because I was told by one of the top guys in the FBI that it was killed. So, that's more than just an answer to what I regret.

TK: Sure.

PS: But Frank Gable is serving life without parole for a crime he didn't commit!

TK: Right.

PS: If he had been there, if he had been involved with anyone else, he would have--he would have given them up long ago! He doesn't know anything! So he can't defend himself. And he's had very bad lawyers most of the way. Cancel that, some of them. I don't want to have to see some of them...(laughs).

TK: Okay. Given your interest in Portland's history, particularly with regard to the Portland Police Bureau, what do you find most distressing about the sometimes hidden realities of the bureau and the reality of corrupt cops?

PS: Well, I'd rather just speak to the history that I know. And this is--I'm not prepared to talk about what's going on right now.

TK: Sure.

PS: Although, I think history teaches us that corruption is a continuing problem. Not just for the police but in government and in corporations and just about everything where power and money are involved. But what is so clear is that Portland, like most any other city, has a long and honorable history of corruption. It started as a corrupt town back in the early 19th century. I read some place that six of the men on the city council were Saloon owners, which means they don't--it was--it was like Deadwood! They had booze and gambling downstairs and they had the girls upstairs. Every one of em! The Sheriff owned a Saloon--was part owner of a Saloon! And so you go from there. And the same thing was happening in the 50's, in Portland Confidential, down here on the Italian produce section. The Gatto's had a club, I think it was called the Merchant Club. And they had a poker game going downstairs with, you know, gamblers teamed up to clean out the farmers when they came in. They had slot machines. And then of course, they had the girls upstairs. And so its the same thing and this was like 100 years later. If there's a difference here in Portland, its that everyone has pretended that everyone was squeaky clean. In some places they actually take a little bit pride in their colorful history.

TK: Uh huh?

PS: In Chicago or New York or Miami but Portland is a very corrupt place. With very few exceptions here and there. Everyone pretended it was--it was not! But...

TK: (The tape recorder makes a squeaky noise, while rolling). Right. These are good tapes, they're good for about 45 minutes per side. (laughs).

PS: Okay.

TK: I learned that the hard way, when I had other one's that were only good for half an hour. (laughs). Okay, the success of Portland Confidential is well known. How has that book impacted your career as a writer?

PS: Well, it's what really got me started. I had done a lot of newspaper work of course and magazine work. That's what--that's what I really did, before I came out here.

TK: Uh huh?

PS: But I'd been holding off on work, so that's--its what got me started. And I wish I'd--I certainly wish I'd done it sooner that's all.

TK: Okay. Would you like some ice? (laughs).

PS: Good idea!

TK: Ice is always nice, in your water. Okay! What are some of the pitfalls of being a journalist, particularly for a newspaper like the Oregonian, or the newspaper that the Oregonian has recently transformed into?

PS: Well...

TK: I hope that doesn't sound too negative, because I've seen some articles recently, that I wouldn't have expected! (laughs).

PS: No, no, this applies to just about any newspaper. The biggest pitfall, I think, is that any way you slice it, unless its an extremely small newspaper or a very unusual newspaper for some other reason, its owned by someone who has--or a company, or a corporation that has a lot of money and they have certain interests. If nothing else an interest in staying afloat and making money. So, they have an interest in their advertisers. They can't do anything that would really offend too many of them, too often. And beyond that, they--they have a real stake in the status quo.

TK: Uh huh?

PS: You know what I mean? In preserving conventional wisdom and so on. That's basically what Noam Chomsky says anyway...and...and he's right! So...

TK: He's a brilliant man.

PS: Yeah...and so am I! (laughs) And what happens is that, after a couple of years in the business, newspaper reporters start--start absorbing all of this on sort of an unconscious level. They don't even ask the questions that normal citizens would ask anymore. It takes someone who's pretty dogged and maybe even a little bit ornery to maintain a separate position. Its too easy to go along. And what usually happens is that...they won't say "you can't say this" but what the editors usually say is, "well this needs a lot more WORK!" Or something like that. Sometimes it does but half the time, when that's said--its an excuse. So, my thing in journalism was always to try to sneak through the cracks and I was pretty successful some of the time. But it is quite shocking to realize just how unquestioningly most people in the media accept conventional wisdom. That's what has to be--that's the one thing that should be questioned most.

TK: Uh huh? That makes sense. I do remember when you were writing a lot about Frank Gable, there were a couple of people I talked to, especially when you first started writing about him, who said, "Oh he's guilty, he did it" and so there was a lot of...there were some people that didn't take it seriously. And then years later, there's all this corroborating testimony that really supports the fact that he didn't do it.

PS: Well, at the time I was getting attacked by Goldschmidt, who was a Golden Boy. He was the governor and he could do no wrong and so, naturally my editors--some of the editors were very honorable and they let me do it, even though they didn't believe it. I don't think any of them really believed I was right. There were some, the late Bob Caldwell, for example, who fought very hard against me and did what he could to undermine me.

TK: Uh huh?

PS: Turns out, he was a good friend of Goldschmidt and he was the one who arranged the so called 'Confession' after Willamette Week came out with the story about the...

TK: Yeah, I remember that.

PS: So, God bless his soul, but facts are facts and that's what happened.

TK: This is such a good café! Its been a few years since I've been here. Every time I come here I'm always like, "Yes, they have good food!" Its been rumored that the book you've been working on for several years was to be a non-fiction book. I even heard from someone I talked to who told me it was going to be titled "Portland City Vice" or something?

PS: Yeah, it was.

TK: But this book is not going to...your plans have changed. Why did you alter your plans and decide to turn the book into a fictional graphic novel instead? Was it going to be called "Portland City Vice?"

PS: It was going to be "Rose City Vice."

TK: Oh right! Rose city Vice!

PS: And I may still do that but...

TK: Uh huh? PLEASE DO! (laughs).

PS: Well, I mean its--what I realized is that, unlike "Portland Confidential" which had a lot of major events, like the Oregonian expose' or the so called--well I guess it was an expose' or the senate hearings. This one didn't have too many major events. The 70's was characterized mostly by the cover ups.

TK: Right.

PS: And it is certainly my conclusion after studying this for some time, I've been working on this for years--for several years, since I've finished--since Portland Confidential has been out. Not only was the vice squad very dirty...

TK: Yes.

PS: I mean to the point that they were a drug gang! They had their snitches selling for them!

TK: Yes.

PS: But that when they could no longer avoid it, when the DA's office could no longer avoid this, they did their best to cover it up! Now, what this means though for a writer is that none of this has been adjudicated. I mean with "Portland Confidential" you had the Oregonian reporting--you had the senate investigation--you had a state police investigation.

TK: Right.

PS: And a tremendous amount of records! There are no real--I mean I tried to collect whatever records there are but there were no legitimate investigations I think--I contend--of the dirty vice squad. I think it was more than just a drug gang, using snitches--as police officers using their snitches to sell drugs. I think there were probably--they probably did what drug gangs usually did and there were a couple of murders along the way too. I can't accuse someone of murder, without having the proof! So, I've fictionalized it for now. I've used a lot of the names of the old gangsters. There's sort of like...Vince Capitan and Willy Nelson and so forth.

TK: Uh huh?

PS: But uh, a lot of the stories are real events but I--but the characters--a lot of the characters are composites. And I've combined them. There are the dirty cops, and the dirty robbers. And the heroine of the whole story is a top call girl madam from town and--and its a love story involving her. So...

TK: I see where there would be a lot more legal complications with this book than with Portland Confidential.

PS: Oh yeah! And...

TK: Because what you're going on is pretty much, like heresay, right?

PS: Yeah. I mean...well...

TK: So, I think there's some consistency in what people--certain people are saying to you right?

PS: Well yeah. It pieces together and after awhile you hear the same thing from roughly the same people. For example, one of the cops...well, I think the point I started to make is that, what really counted here, was the story! I mean, all these colorful characters, gangsters. And dirty cops are very interesting too you know? And the call girl. And that was the story and so why not tell it as a story?

TK: Okay. Okay, and make some money in the process! (laughs).

PS: Well, I mean I've got to make a living, sure.

TK: Sure. Absolutely. (laughs). Okay, I've read one online thing, on the internet, that you received--that you've received, anonymous death threats. Is this true and who do you think did this and for what reason? Any time you don't want to answer any question, you don't have to answer. (laughs).

PS: (Long pause) No, no, over the years...okay, I've...well, you know, anyone who gets close to this world, gets threats. But I was in Miami, back in the 80's. I had dropped out of journalism and I was working as a private investigator down there. And I got what appeared to be a death threat, so I went to my boss and I said "Bob!" and I told him and he said "aww, don't worry about the ones you hear." And that makes sense. If they were really serious, they'd just shoot you! They would...

TK: Callers don't kill and killers don't call?

PS: Yep! And while the Franke investigation was going on, the judge who was appointed to head the investigation called me and said they had received or they had gotten word, that there was a death threat against me. And I said "from who?" And he said, "I don't know but I'm supposed to tell ya!" and so I didn't worry about it. When I was writing this stuff for the Tribune, on the dirty cops, I started getting that...another letter came in and that was different because it could have been construed to be a threat against a member of my family. And so, you don't take chances with that. It turned out to be nothing. I have no idea--I really don't think it came from any of the cops. They're smarter than that, so I don't know.

TK: Okay. I was curious, I found it on a chat website, kind of on the 10th or 15th page, or something but I was curious. Do you plan on publishing any upcoming books about the Portland Police Bureau that would detail the crime of certain police officers during the 70's and into the 80's.?

PS: Say--say the question again?

TK: Do you plan on publishing any upcoming books about the Portland Police Bureau that would detail the crime of certain police officers during the 70's or 80's?

PS: Probably not. (long pause). I've sort of come to the conclusion that the names of the cops aren't that important. This all happened a long time ago. Its--uh, certainly I changed the names and combined characters in " City of Roses"...which is--which is out now.

TK: So, for this book, this other book, Rose City Vice? How many years did you work on that?

PS: Well, off and on since I finished Portland Confidential but you know, I wrote Peyton Allen Files, which covers...

TK: Right. I still have to get that.

PS: I think I have one in the car, I'll--I'll send you one at least.

TK: I got a copy of Portland Confidential. I bought it about six months ago at Powell's and Don wrote a really neat inscription in it.

PS: Oh good! And really what you see in City of Roses, is the outcome of that research okay?

TK: Okay.

PS: It is a Portland story. Its based on the 70's and its true to the spirit of what happened. I'm not sure, at this point, I mean I'm not making a case. I'm not a prosecutor. That should have been done years ago! I'm not minimizing by any means, the crimes that I think were committed. But I just don't see what is to be gained by...(long pause)...dragging any of these police officers through it again. I mean, they were...especially when you get to be as old as I am. You look back and, they were sort of kids! You know? I mean, they really were! Most of them were way over their heads.

TK: Right. Too much power, and not enough supervision.

PS: Well, but...plus they were sort of thrust into a situation and they...Its an impossible situation anyway. I mean, Vice is unenforceable!

TK: Right.

PS: The only way to do it with anyone is--I mean with variations--is to--for prostitution or drugs--is for the cops to team up with half the crooks against the other half of the crooks! And get them to turn in their competitors. And then let the guys they teamed up with go. That's the best you can do. And what it almost always--almost always happens is that it devolves into something very corrupt.

TK: Right.

PS: Because then they see how...how little sense this vice enforcement makes anyway. They get to meet the good prostitutes and most of them are sort of abused girls! And they get to meet the...(long pause)...the serious drug addicts and they see they're just people with problems...and then the people doing drugs like Marijuana? They see, that's sort of like--that's sort of like drinking beer. And so, why shouldn't they--and then they get cynical, and they start taking money and they start going out with the girls! And you know, in the 70's a good percentage of the drug cops were doing drugs! So, you know...

TK: That's actually--Don talks about that, in his book. When he was working vice, he would--his Sgt would give him drinking money and he would go out and he would have to drink. And there's a story in the book, (Behind the Badge in River City; a Police Memoir) an hysterical story, about Don, when he was working Vice! And he got drunk in this bar, right around 3rd and Burnside and was trying to find a black prostitute that had assaulted the Aid of the Mayor. And this was bout 1968, 69 or 70. And uh, maybe 1969, yeah, about 1969 or 1970. And he couldn't find her and so he was really angry because he had wasted all this time and now he was drunk. And so he was walking to his car (laughs) and he sees these two--these two bums! You know, homeless guys! And they come up and they ask him for money! And he figures well, "so that the night would not be a total loss" he says "You're under arrest for vagrancy by begging!" and he starts to put the cuffs--put the cuffs on one and the other guy starts to fight and so he's fighting these two guys on 3rd and Burnside! (laughs). And he drags one of them out into the street and somebody calls the police and he's working vice so he's undercover. And its a really, really funny story. So, yeah, I'm really excited about this. Its humorous, its funny, its touching! Its just really, really a good...

PS: I know he's got a lot of stories to tell!

TK: Yeah, I'm on the forth edit right now. And I've helped him with a lot of additional--because there were a lot of things--a lot of sentences and things that he kind of left undeveloped. And so I said, "we've GOT to develop this! This needs more than just a sentence! This needs a fat paragraph!"

PS: Good!

TK: And so I pushed him and so we've got about 70 pages of additional content. So Its exciting. Okay, what do you think will be the main message or impact of your current graphic novel, now being released in comic book form, and in chapters?

PS: Uh...

TK: Other than just being entertaining?

PS: No, just how--how thoroughly corrupting vice enforcement was in the 70's. Yeah.

TK: Okay. And it still is!

PS: Yeah!

TK: Its really, really hard. I was reading an article about a year ago about a lot of vice officers, just in the last five years! I mean there's just no way! You can't do it without becoming an addict of some kind.

PS: No, I feel--I feel sorry for those guys! I do!

TK: Uh huh? So, and what are your thoughts on the whole Zebedee Manning death?

PS: On what?

TK: Zebedee Manning. We go into--Don goes into a lot of detail in the book, about the Zebedee Manning death. He presents a very--a very--I mean its very convincing--what he says.

PS: Well, and he's right and I've talked to Don a lot about it. I think he was killed by the cops. And I don't think they intended to. I think they wanted to scare him, playing some sort of game of chicken with him. And they screwed up and then covered it up.

TK: Right.

PS: The--beyond that--but it is one of the things they had to cover up. It happened in 75 I believe. 75 or 76. And its one of the things they had to cover up, in 79 and 80--in 1980, when they were forced to deal with the Bikers club house raid. And what happened really, I mean it wasn't the bikers...

TK: Was that the situation where Dave Crowther was killed?

PS: Yeah, in St John's, at the Outsiders.

TK: Oh okay, right. I have a photograph with Jim Bellah. I interviewed him. And uh, I have a photograph of him, behind one of the counters, at one of the Outsiders...

PS: Really? What was he doing?

TK: He was um, he was part of the--he was investigating--I think he was with some of the cops during a raid.

PS: Well, you know, that wasn't really what started the investigation. What finally started the investigation was one of the SID cop snitches got caught in Idaho, I guess it was, selling pills. And of course he gave up the cop he was working with. That cop gave up another cop and pretty soon, it got to the point where the DA's office had a problem!

TK: Right.

PS: And so what they finally did was allow these guys to confess to--and they had to know! I mean just because the way the case was developed. (laughs). I mean one of their snitches was selling drugs and got caught in Idaho! And that's what they were doing! That's a big problem because that means there's a lot of money coming in and it means they're selling--the narcotics squad is selling drugs. And I also believe they were sending the money up too, in time honored fashion. And what they did was to let the--this certain number of those cops resign in exchange for confessing to falsified search warrant affidavits and plant drugs on criminals, which half the population expects them to do anyway! It was nothing and they walked away from it and that was the end of it! Yeah.

TK: I probably should have brought some more questions, (laughs).

PS: Well, what else would you like to know?

TK: So, what are you writing--what are you doing currently? Are you writing for any newspapers?

PS: No, I'm working on a--I'm working on a book about Watergate.

TK: About Watergate? Oh wow, that's interesting.

PS: Um hum. Back in the late 80's, before I came out here, I was back in Washington DC doing magazine work and investigations and I was very interested in that, sort of the reinterpretation of what really happened. And what I'm writing about is a sex scandal that was--or a suppressed sex scandal really--that was behind the break in.

TK: Oh cool.

PS: And I have the little black book that belonged to the call girl/madam, a woman named Heidi Rikan. And I've been in touch with--I've managed to find a lot of people--there were a number of people who knew her. And I'm reconstructing it and trying to tell it as a story.

TK: It sounds interesting.

PS: It is! I hope it will be.

TK: It was kind of interesting meeting Susan. (a mutual acquaintance) She just started chatting with me and I realized she knew all this stuff. She told some really interesting stories. (laughs). Apparently, she met Charles Manson?

PS: Yeah!

TK: Isn't that weird? She told me, she said that her boss...

PS: I've never heard that he was in town, I would--I would want to get that verified.

TK: Yeah, I know. I know. And I thought the same thing and I thought, 'I wonder how that could be proven' if he was in Portland. But she said he had worked at a night club downtown for a couple of weeks and then he came to the place she was working at and wanted to get a job there and she told the boss, "If you hire that psycho, I'll quit!"

PS: Yeah, uh, I'd...I'd...

TK: I wonder if that can even be proven.

PS: Well, her boss is probably not around anymore but there--Manson's records should be public somewhere I don't know...I mean, his Parole officers would have to know.

TK: Well, I mean, its seems possible because Portland is a stopping off point for a lot of people on their way to California.

PS: He spent most of his time in prison, from the time he was 14 or something like that and what I just vaguely remember is that he had just gotten out--before he started putting together that--that crew down in California and so, he was in San Francisco and he met--met people and moved to Los Angeles. I'd be very wary of that story until it could be proved that he could have even been in Portland.

TK: Yeah, I was a little--I was a little dubious myself but she seemed pretty convinced. (laughs).

PS: Well, maybe it was another crazy guy like that.

TK: That reminded her of Charlie! Yeah. laughs). So, what do you know--what's going on with Frank Gable? I mean, do you hear anything? Is there any chance?

PS: Well, I correspond with him! And its finally--after all this time--its been about 20 years. Its about to get into the federal system, so he has a federal public defender, with investigators working on the case now and they should be able to do something!

TK: Didn't he claim, I think I read this years ago, I'm not sure but wasn't he with a guy and they got a couple of teenage girls the night that it happened, he was off somewhere partying, the night that it happened?

PS: No one really--I'm sure he was partying, I mean he was a tweaker.

TK: But he wasn't a killer?

PS: Nah! He--he uh...

TK: I read it somewhere that, that he...

PS: Well, he might have. I'm not sure he knows where he was! I mean, he just wasn't there! No, they made it all up. They made it up.

TK: Uh huh? Because he was convenient? A convenient scapegoat?

PS: Yeah, because he was easy! He was easy! No one cared! He didn't have a family! He didn't have...uh...

TK: What's he doing, I mean, how--how has this effected his life? Do you know?

PS: Well, I mean, being locked up without--without parole?!

TK: Yeah.

PS: Well, I do know this--he regrets that he's getting old and he'll never have a chance to have a family. He's become a good artist! He draws animals with pencil and charcoal. And he tries to keep from giving up! So, I mean, it's a horrible thing that was done to him!

TK: Sure. Absolutely. (picks up the tab).

PS: Are you sure?

TK: Of course! (laughs).

PS: Well, okay. Thanks very much. Can you get the Alliance to pay for it?

TK: Oh God, I wish! (laughs).

PS: Well, then let me pay half of it!

TK: No! no! no! no! (laughs). I got my money today. I got my graduate money. Yay for graduate moneee! Four more classes and I'll be done.

PS: Congratulations!

TK: I am so--I just am so relieved!

PS: What are the four classes for?

TK: A masters in adult education.

PS: Good.

TK: So I can teach creative writing to incarcerated offenders!

PS: Well that will be good. Yeah!

TK: My main undergraduate degree was in criminology. That was always what my main interest was. I was going to be a parole officer but I rethought that! (laughs).

PS: I think that would be a difficult job.

TK: Yeah! And then you go to school for so many--I was 35 when I went back to school. So, you go to school for so many years and what you think you want to do kind of changes a little bit and morphs. And then you realize you're kind of a good writer and maybe creative writing is what you should focus on but I think there's a need for creative writing instructors for incarcerated offenders.

PS: Yeah.

TK: Not just--not just the people they hire for the Basic Skills, so that they can get their GED or whatever, but actual creative writing instructors, to teach them to value their voice and their history and their experience and that tends to lead to less recidivism.

PS: Well, yeah! I would think so. Because that's a necessary part of being sort of honest. As long as they're just not telling war stories about how cool they thought they were, which sort of keeps them trapped as teenagers, which is a danger for all these guys. Because once they--once they go to prison, they just stop growing, most of them.

TK: Yeah.

PS: And uh, yeah, to be able to examine what they've done is very--very valuable.

TK: So! I'm almost done with the 4th edit! And I've actually got a friend of mine, who is a retired cop. He's reading it and also giving me his feedback. Because he's someone I can really trust. Probably the only cop that I'm friends with, that I can trust, because he's so honest. He was always a patrolman. He never advanced through the ranks.

PS: He wasn't a politician? (laughs). Once you've advanced--what people forget about the police bureau is that its the biggest bureaucracy in Portland! And the people who get to the top of it are the ones who are the good maneuver-ers!

TK: (laughs). Or as Don would say, the "good test takers!" Good test takers!

PS: Yeah. Yeah. Its politics too. Knowing how to...

TK: And that's what he said, "the politics would have driven me nuts" and he was just happy to be a patrolman, but he's reading chapters. I give him 30 pages at a time and he's going through them and giving me his feedback. So, I'll probably be done with the 4th edit in about a month or less and then we're going to get it copyrighted. Because we still need to get it copyrighted.

PS: Good.

TK: Which I guess we will do in an afternoon, on the internet. So, then, I was thinking maybe in a month or so, I could get you a copy of the finished product and you could read it.

PS: Okay, I should caution you, I can't read it in a month.

TK: Oh, no, I understand.

PS: I've got to finish what I'm doing now. I've got to finish the first draft anyway and that's several months out. But I'll be happy to read it then.

TK: Yeah, I thought like in a month or two, I could get you a copy of it and then you could read it whenever?

PS: It will be awhile.

TK: Yeah. But you'll like it! You might find that you...

PS: No, I'm sure I will. I like Don and he's had an interesting life and just based on what you've said, I think--it would be good if he could get into detail and he doesn't have to--he can give people other names, you know? No one cares who the guilty party is in a minor thing like this.

TK: And a lot of these people are dead so he's going to use some names of the people that--but there are a couple of people that are still alive, he can't use their names. (laughs).

PS: Yeah, frankly--that's part of the problem I had with the 70's stuff. The 50's was easy! Almost everyone was guilty. Libel lawyers say when they're dead they're on their own! And that's true.

TK: Yeah, but there's some funny stories in there! There's some really sweet, kind of heart-warming stories about some of the people he got to know, over in the North end. A couple of black prostitutes and some other people. Just funny stories. I mean, really funny. He writes them, in a really, like Bert says in a really "matter of fact" way. Very matter of fact! He's got his own really unique writing voice!

PS: Yeah!

TK: Anyhow, thank you so much for meeting with me for this interview, I really appreciate this, this has been a lot of fun!

PS: Not a problem. Lets go and see if I have a copy in my car of "The Peyton Manning Files."

TK: Oh, thank you!

FINI

Interview conducted and transcribed by Theresa Griffin Kennedy